Charles Walker welcomes the increase in maximum sentence for carrying a knife from two to four years.

Mr. Walker: As one who was relieved of his walkman 25 years ago by someone claiming to have a knife, this issue is rather close to my heart. He did not actually show me the knife, but I was not going to hang around to see it, so I passed over my Sony Walkman and went home and had a good cry to my mum. However, it was a fairly frightening experience at the time.

We are told by politicians from all parts of the House that we must be more robust in challenging youths in hoodies when they are preying on our communities, but one reason why people are scared to do so is the fear that they will produce a knife. Given what I have heard from my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Malins), we have every reason to fear that they will. Knives are a huge concern.

Bob Spink: Is my hon. Friend aware of last week's survey showing that people in this country are only half as willing as people in other European countries, such as Germany, to challenge those involved in antisocial behaviour? The reason for that is the stupidity of political correctness, which means that victims and people who challenge youths committing antisocial behaviour are more likely to be brought before the courts by the police than those youths themselves.

Mr. Walker: I certainly did see that survey, and much of the problem stems from the fear of what might happen if we do intervene. There have been some well-publicised cases in the past few months of young men and others with a community-minded spirit challenging local youths and ending up dead. There is also the fear that if one gets into a shoving match with such youths, one might well be arrested by the police and carted off, so better to walk on the other side of the road. However, I welcome the Government's willingness and desire to increase the maximum sentence for carrying a knife from two to four years. It is then up to judges to ensure that that maximum sentence is implemented.

My hon. Friend the Member for Woking made some very important points about schools. If I heard the Minister correctly, a school can intervene if it has reason to believe that a young person is in the possession of a knife. I hope that that does not preclude initiatives such as that in my constituency, where the police have purchased a portable knife scanner. Funnily enough, they do not catch many people with knives going through the scanner, but they do catch a lot of people who see the scanner and leave very quickly in the opposite direction. I hope that, where there is a perceived problem in a school, the police can deploy such a scanner without having to give due warning, so that the school can identify the scale of the problem and ensure that young people carrying knives are identified and the errors of their ways pointed out.

On the question of people having the errors of their ways pointed out, I hope that the Minister can confirm that people caught carrying a knife or other blade will not be subject to conditional cautions, allowed to plead guilty and then receive a fine. These young people need to understand the severity of their actions, and that can be achieved only by their appearing in front of a county, district or magistrates court. We have got to send a clear message.

Mr. Malins: My hon. Friend mentions the subject of knives in school. He probably knows of the case in which Greenwich council was forced to pay £11,000 to a boy who was expelled for taking a knife to school. The council was ordered to pay his mother compensation because of the anxiety and uncertainty that she felt, and to pay £6,000 for home tuition. Is that not the world gone mad?

Mr. Walker: That decision was clearly nonsense, and I would expect everyone on either side of the Chamber to regard it as such. The law is brought into disrepute by such cases. I ask the Minister to ensure that, when people are caught carrying knives, they appear before a judge or magistrate, and that prison sentences are given, so that the public can be confident that the new law to double the length of sentences is being used as a deterrent to stop people carrying knives.

Mr. McNulty: First, I thank the hon. Member for Arundel and South Downs (Nick Herbert) for his full and generous welcome for the amendments. I shall try to ignore what were, in general, rather flaccid and petty attempts at making party political points. They were entirely unnecessary, given that the House broadly accepts all the measures before us.

I tell the hon. Member for Woking (Mr. Malins), who is a recorder, and the hon. Members for Broxbourne (Mr. Walker), and for Castle Point (Bob Spink), that we are not talking about the demonisation of all our children and young people-and I do not say that to seem politically correct in any way. If the hon. Member for Woking assumes that any of the provisions are a panacea or silver bullet-I hope that that is not mixing metaphors-he is profoundly wrong, and no one on the Government Benches has said that they are. We simply say that although awareness, education and initiatives such as knife amnesties are important, they work alongside the existing law and the improvements being made to it by the Bill. Without wishing to be churlish, I suggest that he has a word with his brother judges, when such cases come before them, about the leniency, or otherwise, that he alleged. We can tackle the scourge of knives only if all those matters are considered duly.

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